The secrets to being a great manager: lessons from 100 episodes of Managing Made Simple

One of the things that great managers and leaders can help cultivate is recognizing and saying, hey, I see this superpower in you, or, you know, hey, I’m tapping you for this project or leadership work to me because I know that you can do it, I believe in you. And so I think it can create a sense of belonging on a team, it can help people really step into their full potential. Welcome to the Managing Made Simple podcast.

I’m Leah Garvin, your host and team operations consultant. Through this show and my signature Ops Playbook, I condense a decade of experience driving team operations in some of the most influential companies in tech to save you time, money and stress. It doesn’t matter if you’re a business owner who realized that running a team isn’t as easy as you thought it would be, or a new manager looking to learn the ropes, or a seasoned manager ready to up their game, everyone is welcome to hang out with Managing Made Simple.

From conflicts, to feedback, to delegating and more, we leave no stone unturned when it comes to what makes us love managing, kind of hate it, and everything in between. Let’s go. Let’s go. Let’s go. Let’s go. I am so excited today because I am here with Alex Street, a storytelling coach who I have had the privilege of working with, and now all of you will get a little taste of his magic. And Alex believes when you share your story, you can change the world.

As an actor, youth pastor, and public speaker for more than 20 years, he knows firsthand how powerful storytelling is when it comes to personal development, business strategy, and creating authority. What does storytelling have to do with being a great leader? Like why do we care about this? Oh, it’s so good. I think it’s everything. I mean, it really is. We think leadership is, you know, I point the direction and then you follow me as we go there.

But what we’re seeing, what’s part of the conversation now that maybe wasn’t so prevalent 60 years ago or so, but of course was part of it, what we’re seeing now is the people, you point in a direction, you say, let’s go here, whether it’s a project you’re managing or it’s a long-term goal for your company, you say, we’re going over here. They are sitting back here going, yeah, but why? And I think the why question is something that a lot of employees and team members are feeling this ability and space to ask more than ever, yeah, but why?

And if you as a leader can’t answer that, then it’s going to be really hard to pull them along and you’re probably going to lose some people along the way and have to replace the team. And I think the storytelling aspect of this is about being so clear on why we’re going where we’re going. If you can tell that story, then they don’t have to ask that question and they are emotionally going to be invested in the ride that we’re going on.

So what does it have to do with being a good leader? It really is about making the leadership journey easier than ever, having people feel more invested than ever, and truly feeling like they’re a part of making a difference here. Yeah. I love that. And I think it has a lot with helping people find their purpose in their work. I mean, one of the biggest things we’re hearing with Quiet Quitting and The Great Resignation is I feel like, what’s the point?

Do I even matter here? I just feel like a cog in a machine. And so the power of the story is helping people see how they fit into the bigger picture, helping people really tune into their personal why, why this mission of the company is important. And it’s really critical, I think, for leaders to understand that there’s a story in everything. There’s a narrative in anything. And it doesn’t matter if your work is behind the scenes or the piece that’s always being talked about.

You can always show someone that piece of where they fit into the bigger picture. And that’s going to fuel a sense of purpose. It’s going to fuel higher motivation and engagement, which helps people be more resilient to change. It really helps you get through all of this stuff that we’re working through right now where, yeah, we don’t have all the answers. It’s not all certain. But if you can show people the why, then they feel more resilient to the next job that they have.

Wow, I can actually do more than just this role. I’m going to be OK. And this, again, is going to help fuel motivation instead of all the anxiety that people are feeling right now. I think that bang on, exactly. There’s this whole generation in the workforce right now that is saying almost above all, purpose matters. And the more that you can help me understand how I am a part of this company’s purpose and how this company’s purpose is part of a bigger purpose, like making a difference in this world, then yes, like I’m in.

That’s it. And we can talk about, start with why Simon Sinek and why leads to, he says how, what, I say what, how. But there’s this, that why is so much more than a powerful statement that the company stands on. It really is painting a picture of where we are and how all of us are a part of getting to where we’re going. That’s the story. It’s from where we are to where we’re going. And that’s what storytelling is in this context.

And I love simplifying it down to that because I think, correct me if I’m wrong, but a lot of leaders who are like, I don’t have time for storytelling. Like there’s this like, we got stuff to do. We got places to be. I can’t be abstract and artistic and poetic about this. I need to get us moving. But actually I think when you tell that story from where we are to where we’re going, it’s exponentially faster to get everybody along that train going with you.

Exactly. A huge plus one, plus a hundred of that. I mean, I think this belief that these kinds of things slow things down, that, you know, let’s just get to the work, cut to the chase, as you just called out, when people aren’t bought in, that’s when all the decisions are reopened. That’s when there’s confusion around the priorities. That’s when people start moving slower. That’s when people start checking out and figuring out that story and getting your head around it.

This is how you move faster. This is how you actually get that momentum. I think with all of this, storytelling is the solution to the I don’t care about this attitude. And if we can lean into that and tell a good story, then people will be bought in to the mission. And it becomes a lot more difficult to leave, or let’s put it positively, a lot easier for them to jump on board and to be excited about the work that you’re doing.

Status report or, you know, rally, whatever it is that we’re doing, it’s it becomes a lot easier to be a part of. Today, I am thrilled to have Tracy O’Malley with me. Tracy is an Enneagram expert and leadership and communication and culture expert working with individuals, small businesses, corporate clients, anybody who wants to dive into how to become a better leader and have more fulfillment in their lives. Anybody who has met Tracy will say the same.

When you meet her, you are instantly captivated. She can literally see inside your soul. And I know I’m not the only one who said this. And working with Tracy to understand my own Enneagram type, I felt like, oh, my God, I completely finally understood myself. I understood my not only relationship with myself, but relationship with others and feeling like, well, OK, I need to know more of this. It was so clear for me how powerful this work is for teams and leaders and companies so that people can better understand really in any partnership that you’re in.

So, Tracy, welcome to the show. Hi. So happy to be on. Let’s dive in with setting a baseline for folks. If you’ve never heard about the Enneagram or what it is, what is the Enneagram and how do people kind of understand it? Well, depending on who you ask, you’ll get all sorts of different answers. You know, if you Google it, it’s like this archetypal framework for personality. And true, it is that. I am kind of a bottom line me, what’s in this for me person.

And so I like to explain it in that way. And I know you have a very specific type of listener. And what the Enneagram is to me is this framework that allows me to understand not just myself better but other people better with compassion, with empathy, with grace, with service, with understanding to create a win-win for everyone. You know, when we have all these different life experiences and perspectives, if we are just locked into what ours is, we kind of miss the boat on leadership, whether it’s in our home or in business.

Within that framework, I had this big realization like, oh, you mean not everyone is motivated like me? Not everyone is fearful like me. And the first place I recognized that was in my home. I have two kids that are in their mid-20s at this point. They were teenagers at the time. And I realized that I only spoke in a way that would work for them if they were motivated like me and if they feared like me.

And I knew that they weren’t. And so this framework, the nine archetypes in the Enneagram allowed me to create eight other different languages for people that aren’t like me, that are motivated differently than me. Not only to communicate better with them, but I also learned a hell of a lot more about different perspectives, different experiences, different strengths along the way. Why I love it so much is, I mean, what you talked about touches on so many of the things I hear from leaders, both in the corporate world and as entrepreneurs.

Questions like, why is no one listening to me? I told them what I wanted. Why is it not happening? Why are things moving so slow? And I think it’s a lack of understanding that, yeah, not everybody’s motivated by me. Not everybody hears things in the same way. And I think it’s especially true with entrepreneurs that they start a business because they’re very excited. They’re bought in. They know how to make money. They’re masters of their trade.

And then they hire a team and they see, well, not everybody’s excited about this visionism. What’s happening? And stuff can really go awry and it can create a lot of tension on a team. It can create a lot of misunderstandings. Absolutely. And I think in the corporate world with things like quiet quitting, great resignation, we’re starting to see people aren’t motivated by the things that we used to think. And we’re going to have to have a new language for interacting.

And what’s awesome about the Enneagram is if you understand your team members’ motivations and fears, as you called out, well, you can speak directly to that thing. You can create a stronger sense of purpose. You can create more meaning in their work. And I always say, you don’t have to be on the mission of the moon to have a meaning and purpose in your company and your work, but you have to understand what is it for that person.

And so this is such a powerful tool for managers to connect those dots for their team members. People want to be fulfilled. They want to feel lit up and they want an opportunity for growth. And when you’re in an environment where the person in charge or the person leading you doesn’t see you for who you are, it’s why we are getting the quiet quitting. And so that credibility and trust factor now more than ever as a leader is so vital.

So vital more than ever. And now we’re talking, you know, new generations entering the workforce who are explicitly, they’re saying, I need to feel a sense of purpose. I need to feel like this work matters. I need to feel like I matter. And again, with incentives changing and motivations changing, this is now a tool that you can use to understand what may feel like, I don’t understand anything that motivates this generation. Well, give it a try.

Because if you demonstrate that empathy and slow down and say, well, you know, I need to build the skill as a manager, as a leader to finally start to understand really what’s going on with my team members, that just assigning work that isn’t going to happen saying, here, do this and I’ll pay you more isn’t going to work. There’s got to be something else. Well, and I’m raising this generation of workforce. And a lot of times I think, you know, I’m a Gen Xer.

A lot of times we just scrap it up to this generation. They don’t understand, they’re entitled, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And although there might be some of that going on, obviously, I think the more that you don’t lump them into a category of a generation and instead take the time to understand what motivates them. I work with a lot of 20 somethings. I’m telling you right now, it isn’t just that they’re this generation. It’s because we have a generation in the workforce that has self-awareness.

They were born into these kind of tools where, you know, I’m a first generation personal developer and, you know, the more that I dive into self-awareness tools, not just for myself, but everybody else in the world, it’s not lost on me. The reason why I work with a lot of 20 somethings, because they do appreciate and respect the wisdom that I do bring to the table. And they also appreciate the fact that I want to understand them at a soul level, not just a Gen Z level, right?

So if you are a leader, you know, I’m going to tell you right now, if you start lumping them into that generation, you’re going to lose beautiful, beautiful people that I’m telling you right now, that generation is here to teach us all a little bit of something. And it’s this win-win factor when you come to the table, respecting that they do have an element and understanding that maybe your experience doesn’t have, but your willingness to understand them at that level will take the team a lot further faster.

I am so excited to have Corey Charles with me today. He is the founder of the Humans Potential Accelerator. He’s a visionary leader, an inspirational speaker, and catalyst for personal transformation. Unlocking hidden potential, empowering others and igniting greatness within is his goal. And his bigger goal is to impact 1 million lives worldwide. And once he hits this, it’s going to go on to 5 million, 10 million and beyond. So, you know, I guess let’s start with a question that I’m guessing a lot of our listeners have out of the gate.

Tell me about this goal of impacting a million lives and how you plan on getting there and what the vision is. Oh, man, I know it’s a big, big, crazy goal impacting a million lives. It came to me one day, truly in the middle of the night, and I said, that’s it. That is the goal. And I want to really, really clear, it’s not about ego because I really hope just like you said, I hope that that number has to change pretty quickly.

I hope we hit a million and then we have to go to five and the 10 and then we’re like, OK, we’re bigger than we can handle. So I think it’s really, really important to not only give back because I’ve been really blessed with some amazing people that have given back to me. But just understanding the impact and the ripple effect of impact that it creates. I was blessed to even before I was in my training role, working with a gentleman as a sales mentor, and we went down a path and I’m sometimes called kind of a hippie sales trainer.

I talk a lot about mentality and mindset and all that fun stuff. And we went down this really great, great path and we switched some things up that he’s doing. And I remember talking to him years later. I’d been out of his orbit for a long time and he talked about, man, this, that set of conversations we had, it allowed me not only to be a better salesperson, it allowed me to move into leadership, become a better leader.

I was a better husband, a better father. And I just understood, man, that is an incredible ripple effect. Look at all those people that were affected by just a few small conversations. So if we can get into the space where we’re impacting people on that level, I think it’s really amazing. I always say kind of as a little tagline to that is, I really believe that I will, it’s somewhere in my lineage. You know, you talk about legacy, I talk about legacy a lot as well.

Somewhere in my lineage, somewhere in my legacy, I will impact a person that changes the world. It may not be someone that I talk to directly, but it could be a child, it could be a spouse, it could be someone that I train someone, they train someone, they train someone. Somewhere in that lineage, there should be someone that changes the world. And that is absolutely my mission to help foster that change. Yeah. And by doing that, you are changing the world too.

And I think for anybody that’s leading a team in any capacity, this is the ripple effect. And that’s why I love your mission so much, because it’s about understanding that that’s the impact we bring. Understanding how we show up every single day to work, whether we are in the corporate world, managing teams, managing managers, even managing, managing managers, managing managers, right? Like the exponential impact that conversation, that leading with empathy, that creating psychological safety, that helping people show up as their full selves.

If you’re a business owner, you know, and you have a smaller team, the potential that people can create kind of going on even after they’re working with you, it really is limitless. And I think that’s why it’s so important for leaders to be thinking about things and having these conversations, because if we think about it, like, oh, whatever, if I just don’t get this conversation right, or I don’t have to get better at feedback, you know, whatever, we’re all just working hard, we’re just trying to get stuff done.

You miss the impact. And it’s, you know, I know you’re a superhero movie fan, but with great power comes great responsibility. Oh, now you’re speaking to my favorite quote. Exactly. When you’re a leader, you have to think at the scale that you’re talking about. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that’s one of the things that gets missed a lot. And it’s not, you know, not always the fault of the leader, but we get so caught up in the day to day, the X and O’s.

If you’re, you know, using coach terminology, we get so caught up in the things we forget about the people and how important it is to really spend some time understanding our people and giving them just the things that they need to be successful and be really awesome humans. I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve been talking with a business owner or manager and they’ve said, I want to be a better manager. I just don’t know the steps.

Tell me what to do and I’ll do it. And frankly, I’ve felt that way too. Even when I had been managing people for a while, because this stuff is hard and it changes all the time. So the last time someone asked me for the steps, I made a cheat sheet. Head to LeahGarvin.com slash scorecard for 20 things you can do this month to be a better manager. This is literally your tell me what to do and I’ll do it steps to motivate your team and get better results.

There’s no time like the present. Grab the scorecard or write freaking now, LeahGarvin.com slash scorecard. One of the things that great managers and leaders can help cultivate is recognizing and saying, Hey, I see this superpower in you or, you know, Hey, I’m tapping you for this project or leadership or to me because I know that you can do it. I believe in you. And so I think it can create a sense of belonging on a team.

It can help people really step into their full potential. And this is something that, you know, as leaders, we don’t want to just wait necessarily until someone says like, Hey, I want to volunteer for this thing or, you know, can I try this? But like really having a radar out for some of these things that your team members bring, some of these stretch opportunities, really focusing on recognition so that it doesn’t have to, people can feel like, you know, someone else is looking out for them.

And I think, you know, this is something that I’m sure you bring to the leaders that you talk with. Like, Hey, how do you really elevate these superpowers in other people so that they’re being amplified instead of kind of overlooked? And it’s funny, you know, your story has a lot of parallels to mine with working in team operations in the corporate world, feeling like a lot of that’s behind the scenes and very undervalued at times and feels invisible.

And now bringing that and really reigniting and owning that and bringing that to small businesses like, Hey, like this is my jam. I love making processes easier. I love helping teams figure out how to work more seamlessly, feel more motivated, understand how to get their work done and more effectively. And and like sort of reclaiming that, I think, is another piece that I love that you’re talking about. Yeah, I think it’s really important, too. And sometimes we miss that part of it.

And something you said a minute ago that just gave me goosebumps when you said it is, hey, I believe in you, man, that goes such a long way. And it’s something that, you know, not for any negative reasons, but sometimes it just gets missed. And that moment, I can say for someone like me that didn’t necessarily have the gift of gab, as they say, especially in a sales role, that moment of, hey, I believe in you.

You can do this. You’re going to be OK. It goes so, so, so far, makes me want to work harder, makes me want to prove you right more than anything else. And again, I think if if more leaders can just happen to that part of the business or that part of the equation, I think you’re not only going to feel more fulfilled as a leader, but you’re going to have some absolute superhero people on your team, which is amazing because you get the benefit of both sides of that coin.

Right. I am so excited to have Stacey Millard with me today. Stacey is a fractional CFO and business mentor for entrepreneurs who want to leave behind a survival mode mentality and thrive in their small businesses. She grew and sold her first seven figure business before she was 35 while raising her two daughters. She prides herself not only in her experience growing her own business, but also the thousands of small business owners that she’s helped over the past 15 years.

I love, love connecting with CFOs because there’s so many synergies with the COO or, you know, chief financial officers with the synergies around chief operating officers. So the CFO and COO kind of work that I do. And you know, with that said, let’s talk about scaling teams and businesses. OK, this is one of I know both of our favorite topics. And just got to ask, where is one of the biggest places you see leaders get stuck when it comes to scaling?

In terms of scaling early on, the biggest thing I see is this mentality of having to do it on our own because we’re really in this stage of figuring things out. Is this going to work? And we kind of come at it with a little bit of fear of like, well, I don’t know if I’m going to keep all the. Clients like, you know, how do I hire? Who should I hire? So we end up just waiting through the discomfort so long that when we make that first hire, it’s not a great experience.

Usually what happens at that stage is we hire, you know, doers, people who do a little bit more of the workload, but not necessarily strategic thinkers. So at a later stage in business, all of a sudden, we get to that next level. And we’re like, okay, we keep hiring these people to do things more. But then we get that stress and that, okay, this isn’t working. And why not? Well, you need somebody who’s a higher level thinker, more strategy behind things instead of just, you know, doing.

And so there’s multiple levels, but it’s really based on where you’re at. And it’s always because you’ve made decisions to that point, not thinking about where you’re going in the future. You’re thinking of what do I need right now? Yeah, I love that. And I see managers in the corporate world wrestle with a very similar thing. I think sometimes there’s a lot of hiring of, you know, junior folks who are hungry and in their full execution mode.

And then that that leader is kind of stuck with navigating the strategy and priorities are kind of the vision of the team, or vice versa. I’ve been in a lot of teams where it’s very top heavy. And there’s a lot of ideas, a lot of vision, a lot of stuff there, but really nobody to implement. So I love your call out that you really have to think about what stage are you in the evolution of, you know, as a team of a business wherever you’re at, because if you think about, you know, who you need today, it’s not going to get you to where you want to be.

And I think even if we have a really, really burning need right now, we do have to think about what is that roadmap so that we don’t get somewhere and we’re not equipped with the people that we have. The other thing that I’d like to point out is that I see sometimes where we are almost 100 steps ahead of where we’re going, where we’re like, you know, we’re a six figure business. And we’re like, okay, we’re going to be seven, but I mean, low six and seven, there’s a big difference in between.

So we’re like, well, I want to be a seven figure business, I’m going to hire this manager, I’m going to use all my extra cash to do that. And then there’s almost nothing for them to do. And then it doesn’t work out because you can’t utilize their skills at that level. So really, we’re needing to think a few steps ahead, not blocks ahead. Yes, I love that distinction. I mean, it’s so true, because who is going to do that work, we always have to have someone that’s implementing someone that’s executing.

And I think I’m sure you see every day, I know one thing that I experienced as a business owner is wrestling with the stuff I do, because I can or kind of like doing, but what should I be doing? And funny enough, as Stacey and I were talking before we hit record about, I was like, you know, I’m definitely busy, but am I always focused on the right things. And I think this is something that we always wrestle with and have to find that right equation.

And we’re bringing on people, I think a big, a tough thing that managers and business owners have to have to reconcile is letting go of a lot of the work they like doing or find comfortable, because, you know, that’s the stuff that could really be, you know, that’s going to help you scale. The other thing I think from the leadership perspective is we think that if we have to hone in on our ops, that we’re not great leaders.

And we’re not doing something. And I don’t think it’s that I think that it’s as small business owners, we come with a skill set in whatever industry or whatever trade we’re in. We are literally unless you work for Disney, nobody has leadership school. Even in business school, we weren’t taught real leadership. It’s something you have to learn. But you don’t really know how to delegate properly, unless you’ve really sought out to learn from a professional or a book or really want to learn how to do it right.

And so I think there can be some shame with oh, well, I’m inefficiently managing my company, but it’s like, it’s not bad. It’s just that you got to learn how to walk. Yeah, got to bring in the right roles to do that. So I fully agree. I mean, I think recognizing where you need support, hiring the people that do the thing that you don’t do, that’s actually the real leadership, right? Okay, and that has me thinking of this thing.

I work with so many clients who hire within and they promote within. And I don’t know what your thought is on this. But a lot of the time, I’m like, this is the worst decision. You’re killing your business, because that person was great at what they did. And then now you’re promoting them, but they’re not really a manager, they were really good at producing. So now you’ve lost that really good producer and revenue generation. And now you’ve got somebody who’s so good, and you’re going to lose them in their business because you’re not they’re not happy.

Do you work with people to really come up with a plan of this is what you need in this position. And here’s how to get people there. And then be able to make smart moves on bringing people in properly. It’s kind of doing everyone a disservice, right? You’re not giving your team members exposure to new types of projects, initiatives, you’re not reserving your own superpowers for like more impactful work. So everybody kind of loses when there is this hesitation or avoidance of delegation altogether.

I am so excited to have Robin Rapp with me. Robin is a leadership development coach and facilitator. And she brings over 15 years of operating excellence at Google. And in early stage days of Slack, she enables talent to find renewed connection and commitment to their work, empowers individuals to stretch themselves into leadership roles, and supports working parents who hope to simultaneously prioritize their family and invest in meaningful work. Just diving right in, you know, having been a manager yourself in the corporate world, and now on the other side, coaching managers and seeing like, oh, you know, I’m not alone in some of the struggles I had.

Yeah, what is something that you share with your clients that you really wish that you heard earlier or knew earlier when you were managing people? Like marketing agencies, law firms, and med spas. Whether it’s making those feedback conversations a little less awkward, how to support your team through all of the change and uncertainty making us all well, a little on edge right now, or delegating to empower your team to step up as owners. I come into your teams and give you the tools you need to wrestle with all this tough stuff and feel like you’ve got it handled.

Reach out at hello at leahgarvin.com or pass my info along to the decision maker in your company. And let’s make all this team stuff easier and a lot more fun. Yeah, the list is endless in terms of what I wish I knew as a new manager. But one of the biggest ones that comes to mind that I try to impart on all of my clients, especially those who are newer managers, is that you really have to get comfortable with having hard conversations, be it around performance or potentially how your team members are showing up.

So, you know, is it uncomfortable to tell someone that you think they get defensive when they’re receiving feedback? A hundred percent. Yes, it’s awful. But is it important that you take the time to really develop that incredibly important skill of receiving feedback with your reports? Absolutely. So, you know, you and your team members will be better for it, even if in the moment it’s absolutely terrifying and awkward for all parties involved. So one of those things I remind my clients about is that you have to remember that your employer isn’t paying you to be friends with your reports or to be well liked.

It’s really excellent when that happens. Right. And it’s a beautiful thing. But when those two desires seem to be at odds with one another, you know, wanting to be a great friend and wanting to be a great manager, it’s important to remember which one we have a responsibility to deliver on and which one we’re getting paid to do. Today, I am so excited to have Jackie Koch with me. Jackie is the founder and CEO of People Principles.

And with over a decade of experience recruiting and scaling people ops for startups and small businesses, Jackie founded People Principles three years ago to help CEOs get the people stuff right. And I’ll rip off the bandaid with the question right away, because I think this is where I was just so excited to talk more is, you know, you mentioned when clients come to you with an issue that they’re categorizing as an HR thing, you know, what do you usually see is actually going on for them?

Oh, gosh. Usually it is a them problem on leading their team, to be honest. And it’s just a lack. I mean, honestly, if I actually answer that question, I think the root cause of the problem is a workflow problem. Yeah. Yeah. Like usually it’s always about the way the work is being communicated, the way that people are working together. And it’s not like a communication thing. It’s like an actual like systems workflow. It’s like the way stuff is translated to one another or given passed off to somebody else who’s next in the process or the way things are organized, to be quite honest, is what I feel is most of the time the issue.

And then quickly followed after the manager of that person being maybe just not as skilled as they need to be at managing the team. So that’s where I would say start. I wanted to initially say the manager, but I actually think it’s even before that. Yeah. So you heard it here first, folks, is the ops issues and the systems. And this is the thing. I mean, I think we, you know, teams often feel like they have to be way further along to look at, you know, ops.

And it has this sort of this kind of vastness. But as you describe it, what it really is, is, hey, how do we know like we’re working on the right thing? How do I know what done looks like? How do I know where to like put a file when I’m finished with it? Like these little things, they get in the way. And as you call out these kinds of things, when they happen for so long, people are unhappy.

It creates tension and conflict and stress, which then I’m guessing sort of is escalated to you as like, oh, these team members aren’t getting along or we have this like we have to let this person go because they haven’t been performing well. A lot of times, like if you don’t know what the goals are or what success looks like or what you’re supposed to be working on when you finish something, yeah, you may be underperforming, but it’s really not like it’s not that you’re not good at your job.

You weren’t set up for success. Yeah. And I think there’s two things that come to mind when you are talking or like sharing some of that stuff. And one is like, think about the way that we work together, like that team’s work and how much has changed over the last, God, even literally five years, but specifically like 15 years. Right. Like I’m a little bit older. And so I remember that I used to go into an office and like I would answer a telephone and I would go get a fax, a piece of paper off of a fax machine.

And then I would put it into this file and like I knew how many calls I had. Things were just like a little bit more simple to roll out to your teams and all of those things. And now we have unlimited ways that you could set up how you organize your business, how you organize your team. And I don’t think there’s enough people paying attention to intentionally crafting those. And they think because it was simple when they were starting out in their career, why don’t these people get it?

So that comes to mind. And then the second piece is, you know, HR is being rebranded as people operations. And that’s because that’s really what it should be now. Like HR, it’s so easy to follow compliance stuff now. Like there’s so many tools that help you do that, that really HR is the operations on how people work together and work amongst themselves in a team environment. So like those are two things that come to mind as you were sharing some of those things that I noticed even in my own, you know, 20 year career.

Yeah. Well, and it’s interesting, you know, with when managers don’t have the support they need and now we’re in this dynamic where it’s harder to have a sense of what the status is and where folks are at now managing people remotely and with hybrid teams, distributed teams all over the world, right? This is makes it if you didn’t get a lot of support as a manager now, like the heat’s turned up real high. And it’s like, well, how do you, you know, take the limited understanding of how to be a good leader and apply it to these really complicated situations?

And that’s why, you know, I have this show and I spend so much time working to develop managers is we have to, you know, get the support somewhere. Otherwise it’s the teams that suffer. And there’s so much data. I know Gallup reports on it every year that like the number one people reason people leave teams in companies is the managers. And we all know it. We’ve heard it. People don’t leave companies, they leave managers. But really to internalize that, you know, if you have a team of 10 people and you have one manager, like develop that person.

That’s going to be really important to do no matter you don’t have to have a massive team to take action. Totally. And I think what happens is like you hear that stat is like people don’t leave what you just shared, right? People leave bad managers. Yeah. And so people think, OK, I’m just going to be nice. Yeah. I’m just going to get to know my team. I’m going to be kind. And yes, do all of those things.

But I think what then doesn’t happen is like the tactical side of like how I’m delegating work, how I’m sharing a vision, how I’m checking up, you know, those things are not as talked about as much as having emotional intelligence and giving feedback. Like you can find unlimited amount of stuff. But what you teach on this show and what you do is actually, I think, the most critical thing that it’s not even overlooked. It’s like you don’t know what you don’t know.

Yeah. You don’t even see it as a problem. Yeah, exactly. And that’s where it starts to have the biggest, you know, obviously the biggest consequence because people aren’t dealing with it or they’re dealing with in pockets. And I love that you called out, you know, that building that relationship, the empathy, that’s not enough. It’s the foundation. But, you know, I often say that, you know, we know psychological safety or, you know, the safety and taking risks and being vulnerable is fundamental for an effective team.

But I believe the precursor to that is accountability, because if you don’t know what forms you can speak up or share, you know, questions or opinions or these things, then you don’t really feel safe. So it isn’t just being nice and, you know, liking your manager or liking your teams. We have to know like the safety comes in the predictability and it comes in knowing what to expect when I show up to work and knowing that, you know, I’m not like there’s not a moving goalpost.

That actually makes us feel safe. For sure. And I mean, I can think of a lot of different clients of mine and CEOs that I’ve worked with who are great people. Yeah. Like they have great missions. They treat people well. They are wonderful, generous humans and their teams hate working for them because they don’t have direction and clear goals and ways of working effectively together. And that is the most important. Well, I don’t know. I guess being a good human is definitely important.

But then closely thereafter is this. Right. Yeah. We’re talking about. Well, because it’s part of it. Like, I think it’s an incomplete understanding of, you know, I always, you know, I don’t know, roll my eyes or get fresh when I hear like, you know, put a bunch of smart people in a room and they’ll figure it out. It’s like that’s like ridiculous. Nobody can just figure shit out by themselves. It does not work that way. It does not work that way.

People need support. They need to understand, like, OK, what are those norms? And it doesn’t have to be complicated. And I know both of us talk a lot about this is like it doesn’t have to be, you know, using some like really intricate task tracking system and goal setting thing and having goals. This process, it’s really about the simple few things, you know, that you can set up. .