Three signs you are micromanaging (and how to stop)

Welcome to the Managing Made Simple podcast, where you get a masterclass in managing your team with ease in 15 minutes or less. I’m Leah Garvin, your host and team operations consultant. Through this show and my programs with small businesses and corporate teams, I condense a decade of experience driving team operations in some of the most influential companies in tech into strategies to save you time, money, and most of all, stress. Doesn’t matter if you’re a business owner who realized that running a team isn’t as easy as you thought it would be.

Are a new manager learning the ropes or a seasoned manager ready to up their game? Everyone is welcome to hang out with Managing Made Simple. From conflicts to feedback to delegating and more, we leave no stone unturned when it comes to what makes us love managing, kind of hate it, and everything in between. Let’s go. Welcome back to the show. This week, we are talking about micromanagement because, come on, we can never talk about this enough.

This is one of those traps that is so easy to fall into. Even if you feel like you’ve really avoided it in some situations, maybe you have a new hire, or you’ve gotten promoted, or you have new responsibilities, or you’ve grown your business or team in some way, and you’re a little out of your comfort zone, and then you fall right back into it. I am so excited to talk about this because it is one of my, I know I say this, okay, all these are my favorite topics.

I should stop saying it’s my favorite topic, but it is one of those that we just can’t talk about enough. Because I talk about it all the time, I wanted to, instead of doing a solo episode, share an interview that I did on the How to Be Awesome at Your Job podcast, where I talk about three signs that you’re micromanaging and what to do about it. This was such a fun interview on the podcast. It’s an awesome, awesome show.

I highly recommend you check it out. This will give you some practical solutions that you can really try right away if you realize from listening to this interview that, yep, I sure am a micromanager. Now, as always, if you want support for yourself as a leader, for your team, for scaling your business, for any of those things I talk about on the show, please reach out. These are things that you do not have to figure out alone, and you don’t have to figure out kind of muscling through it over a few years at the expense of your team.

Because, yeah, sometimes we can figure these things out from reading books and waiting and trial and error, but it’s really at the cost of your profitability and your star performers. So if you want some hands-on support, reach out at helloatleahgarvin.com, and I can’t wait to support you. Let’s dive in. Hello, and welcome to episode 834 with Leah Garvin. Leah is back, and this time we are talking micromanagement, how to spot it, what to do when you encounter it, so much good stuff.

So you’ll learn, one, the three telltale signs of micromanaging, two, how micromanaging makes everyone less effective, and three, how to expertly respond to a micromanager. So if you want to check out the show notes or the transcript or the links to items that we’ve referenced, please visit us over at awesomeatyourjob.com. And if you’re at awesomeatyourjob.com, I recommend you check out some more goodies like the gold nugget email summaries, the full text searchable transcripts, the every episode tagged by the topic and the competency covered, and so much other good stuff.

Now, here’s a little bit of good stuff about Leah. Leah Garvin is the best selling author of Unstuck, TEDx speaker, and workplace strategist with experienced leading team operations across Google, Microsoft, Apple, and Bank of America. As the founder of the Workplace Reframe organizational strategy firm, she equips innovative organizations of any size and industry with the tools to cultivate inclusive, motivated, high-performing teams, resulting in higher retention, more efficiency, and better business results. She’s a sought-after speaker in the media, featured across Inc, Fast Company, ABC News, CNN Business, US News & World Report, HBR, and much more.

Big thanks to Leah for sharing her wisdom with us. And big thanks to our sponsors. Check them out. One sponsor to check out is Ginny Kane Home. I am in love with my super cozy Ginny Kane cashmere hoodie, and dare say I believe it is the coziest item that I own, bar none. And Ginny Kane Home brings those same delightful touches to home decor. It has been called the ultimate destination for elevated home essentials. Their designs are so intentional, their quality so high, everything there looks custom, and yet it arrives at your home so much faster than custom pieces do.

They’ve got amazing pillows, throws, glass candles, dinnerware, and a strong rewards program that you can join completely free. Ginny Kane Home has everything you need to transform your space into a luxurious sanctuary. And how to be awesome agile listeners, get 15% off your first order when you use the code awesome15 at checkout. That’s 15% off your first order at J-E-N-N-I-K-A-Y-N-E, ginnykane.com, promo code awesome15. Curate your dream home with Ginny Kane. Now, here’s Leah. Leah, welcome back to How to Be Awesome at Your Job.

Thank you so much for having me. So excited to be back. Well, I’m excited to dig into what you’ve been up to lately. And I understand in particular, you have developed a fascination with the topic of micromanagement. What’s the scoop here? Yes, with micromanagement and how to end it once and for all, I would say. Yes. Well, lay it on us. What’s the story? Yeah. Since we last met, I actually ended up leaving my corporate job and launching an organizational consulting business really dedicated to bringing out the best in teams.

And since we’ve all heard people don’t leave jobs, they leave managers, diving in and really making sure managers are equipped with the tools they need to be effective and empower their teams. That was one of the first places that I wanted to start. And then micromanaging was one of the biggest sort of acute problems in that space. Well, yes, I’ve heard it many a time. So maybe to kick it off, could you precisely define what is micromanagement?

Because some folks will say, well, no, no, that’s just management. Like if there’s a gray zone, is there a bright dividing line between this is when you’ve gone too far, buddy? So I think a lot does depend on the kind of job in the industry. So I’ll say that there is I don’t think there’s a hard and fast answer that applies to every situation. And I think that’s where it can get tricky, because if we’re used to something in one environment, we may be bringing that to the next environment.

Let’s say we’re in a job where instructions need to be followed exactly one specific way. And if you deviate from that, it’s a real problem, maybe a safety issue. Let’s say we bring that into a job that’s more about ideas and many paths to success, then you’re going to be in a real conflict. So I think the first thing to do before we dive into how to recognize if you’re micromanaging is if you’re a manager to being open to adjusting and saying, OK, what’s the right way to interact with my teams, depending on what kind of the working norms are in this team.

So as I thought about it a lot, reflected on my own personal experience with many, many managers over the years, and feedback that I heard from other colleagues, I think there was three real tells that I landed on around how to know when you’re a micromanager. And the first one is you are spending every waking moment in meetings. So this is a big problem that I think has gotten even worse with COVID and remote work and everything moving to videoconference.

But this is not an excuse to not reflect and say, hey, am I in the right meetings? So when a manager is in every single meeting, it’s a sign that they’re not, they’re too far in the weeds, they’re too much in the details. And if you are finding yourself where you have no time to drink a glass of water, go to the bathroom, or eat lunch, there’s an opportunity to let your team members step up. And so I would suggest in that situation to take a look at your calendar and see which meetings am I absolutely critical, critical to be at?

Am I a decider? Am I a prover? And all the rest, which one of those could you delegate to somebody else to drive? Okay. And what are the other two tells? Number two is everybody’s coming to you for every single little decision, right? Nobody is actually taking action. It’s always coming back to you. This is a sign that people either don’t feel empowered to make decisions, or they think that you want to be involved in making all the decisions.

So if you’re finding yourself where every single question decision comes to you, this is a moment to have a conversation with your teams around what decisions you want to be and should be involved in, and which they’re empowered to run with on their own. So I think sometimes one thing I’ve suggested to managers is to classify the kinds of decisions, which ones are this category where they need leadership discussion and buy-in, and which ones can they push down the organization?

Because if everyone’s coming to you, that means they’re responding to a signal you’ve probably sent them. All right. And number three? So the third thing is when people are continually coming to you and saying, Hey, I have bandwidth. I want to take on more responsibilities or what can I help with? And you’re not necessarily taking them up on it. And this is a sign that people are recognizing that you may be spread really thin as a manager, and you’re not noticing it, or you’re holding on to too many things.

And when people are actually asking you to let go, that’s a real moment to listen to them and think about that. And if you’re finding that situation, it’s a moment where you can think about, well, what are all the tasks on my plate? What’s everything I have this week or this month? And what are the things I can let go of that are actually worthy for someone else to take on? You know, delegating isn’t about giving people all the lists of stuff you didn’t want to do that nobody wants to do.

It’s about finding what are the high impact activities that someone else can do that’s going to be worthwhile. Does it give them visibility or a development opportunity or something in line with where they want to go in their career? So if we’re finding ourselves in those three places, too many meetings, too much control over decision making, and people are asking for more, that’s a sign. I’m in too deep. I’ve got to take a step back and let go a little bit.

Okay. So that’s how we know when we’re there. And I’m curious, can we maybe zoom out a little bit on the macro scale? And do you have any sense for just what’s the cost of micromanagement? And I don’t know if there’s a study like billions of dollars or attrition rates or percentage of people who say they suffer it. What’s kind of the scope of things here? Yes. So there’s a lot of data coming out of the Gallup organization around employee engagement going down.

And one of the big reasons that’s cited is micromanager or feeling like your manager is not either doesn’t have the right set of skills or not invested in you or is not managing effectively. And I think the cost of someone being a micromanager is pretty widespread. So first for the manager themselves, they are so much more likely to reach a state of burnout because they are taking on too much. And so I think if only it affected the managers, this is already really inexpensive cost because people are getting burned out.

They’re feeling like, OK, I can’t scale right now. Folks are having to do more with less with layoffs and cutbacks. And so it ends up putting so much more work on someone’s plate and creating more single points of failure. But it’s really detrimental to the broader team because when people can’t step up and own more, they often feel disillusioned with the work. They start losing motivation. I think this is a real contributing factor to quiet quitting people feeling like, well, I’m kind of going to give it bare minimum and that’s about it because I’m not really empowered to do more.

And also what can lead to so many people leaving the workforce because they’re not given the space to really grow, to demonstrate their strengths to to solve problems in their own way. So micromanagement, I think, can really light the spark that starts to have someone questioning, do I have a future here on this team? All right, Leah, so we’re talking micromanagement. We’ve also had some guests speak about the concept of of under management. They’re just managers or checked out, not pay attention, not really aware of the stuff they’re their folks are working on.

Do you have a sense for which is more dangerous? Ooh, I love that. I think it goes back to depending on the situation and potentially the level of seniority that you’re managing, the level of complexity of the work. But like you say, I mean, under managing is a serious issue when especially for folks that are newer, if there’s no onboarding, if you kind of get hired, you’re working out of your bedroom, you haven’t seen anybody in person and you’re trying to figure out how to navigate life in a new company and your manager says, OK, figure it out.

This can drive that same sense of disconnection with the work and with the company that having someone in all the details because you feel like you’re left on an island and you have no idea what to do. So I think they both have serious consequences, but they both have the same, I would say, the issues at its core of a manager not having potentially the right confidence or the right skill set around how to actually manage effectively.

So there’s a real skill gap. And that’s what I love to dive in with teams is figuring out, well, here’s the sharing the fundamental skills that will help bridge that gap, how someone can feel more comfortable assigning responsibilities or reining it in a little bit, but finding that balance, finding your own authentic style and then where to deploy these different tools in different situations. Did you know that I do team workshops on all of the stuff that I talk about on this show with large companies like Google and also with startups and small businesses like marketing agencies, law firms and med spas, whether it’s making those feedback conversations a little less awkward, how to support your team through all of the change and uncertainty making us all, well, a little on edge right now, or delegating to empower your team to step up as owners.

I come into your teams and give you the tools you need to wrestle with all this tough stuff and feel like you’ve got it handled. Reach out at hello at leahgarvin.com or pass my info along to the decision maker in your company. And let’s make all this team stuff easier and a lot more fun. And do you have a sense for, given the state of management these days, roughly what proportion of managers are micromanaging, managing about right versus under managing?

It may vary wildly by industry, by geography, but what’s your sense on the ground? I got to say, I think a lower number are managing just right. Okay. I don’t know. I would say the under and over are managing just right. I don’t know. I would say the under and over, I think I know less about like the percentages wise. I think what I would guess is they come as a pair. Micromanaging can often be look like that helicopter managing, which we’ve all heard of helicopter parenting, where you’re really, really in it.

And then you’re kind of out on the sidelines where I think it can look like both. And for different people think doing micromanaging and then being absent, that’s a reaction to needing a sense of control or feeling stressed or feeling overwhelmed. People fall into these different patterns. So I think it could both be a personality type and situational, which is your tendency as a manager when you have this skill gap. But I think, like I said, the lowest, and I got to say, I think the lowest percentage would be people that found that balance and are doing it just right.

And that is because again, in this Gallup data, most managers are in the position of a people manager because they’ve been in a company a long time, or they were a really, really strong individual contributor, or they have really strong technical skills. So they’re given a team and it’s like, go for it. And there’s some stuff that’s got to happen between getting a team and leading a team effectively that I think not enough companies are investing in.

Understood. Well, let’s say we see some of ourselves in that description. We’ll go both sides as the manager and the managee or the person working with the manager. If we are the manager and we’re doing some micromanaging, how could we cut it out? So I think the biggest thing that managers can do is switch from problem solving to coaching because when managers sort of take on the responsibility of a team member brought this up so I need to solve it for them, they are never going to teach that person how to fish, so to speak.

They’re always going to be needed to solve that problem again and again. And so talking to your team members, using a coaching mindset, using open-ended questions, when someone comes to you saying, Hey, I can’t solve this problem. You’re saying, here’s how I would have done it. Right? You jump right in with the solution. That person hears that. And maybe they go and take that solution and they don’t deploy it exactly as you would. And then they’re still stuck or they take the solution and they, and they deploy it and it works out well, but then that happens again.

Now they come back to you for another solution. So I think when folks come to us with a problem, one of the easiest reframes a manager can do is to ask some open-ended questions. What do you think went wrong? What are other, some of the other factors we can consider here? What did you learn here that you want to try next time? So these different kinds of open-ended questions allow the problem to be kept in the problem bringers court so that they’re working through the solution.

There’s absolutely opportunity to course correct and say, I don’t know, like here are some of the things that I, that I’ve seen go wrong in that situation or offer more support, but really keeping that in the other person’s court helps ensure that you’re not holding on to too much control over a problem. Okay. Anything else? Yeah. I think we can also, I mentioned that the strategies of making sure you’re, you’re checking in with yourself continually. I think for managers, when you’re feeling stressed or overwhelmed or burned out, or you’re into many things to just check in.

So maybe you start on and put it in the calendar every Friday. I’m going to, I’m going to do a gut check. What does my calendar look like? What kind of questions that people bring me this week? What does my delegating look like? So that you’re not letting it get too far where it’s been six months and you realize, oh gosh, I’m, I’m in it. And I think people are starting to quit and I didn’t even realize it.

So I’d say to really have a routine where you check in on those three tip-offs of being really too far in the weeds so that you can course correct before it gets worse. Okay. And if we are the one being micromanaged, how do we speak up effectively? That could be tricky, that managing up discomfort. Oh, it can be real tricky. And this is why I think sometimes we take the route of just quitting and going, well, I’m going to look for someone else because I don’t want to deal with it.

I think a lot of folks struggle with doing that managing up as you called out and giving that feedback. And so I think a couple things that I’ve tried in my career, I’ve seen folks find in order to deal with this are first having a conversation with, with your manager around skills and things that you want to develop so that at least you’ve put it out there on, Hey, here are some projects I’m interested in taking on this year.

Here are some different things that I want to be building. Here are some things I’m interested in. So you first feel like, okay, I’ve done the first step of having the conversation, putting it out there. And then I think to the extent that you feel comfortable, if you’re in a situation where your manager, let’s say dives in and starts like line editing an email you sent or telling you who to add to all the invites to a meeting or whatever is happening, that feels a little bit heavy handed.

I think saying something like I’m really excited to take the lead on this and to try to demonstrate that I got this and I figured it out. So I’d love the opportunity to just take the first step and then come back to you for feedback. I’ve tried to say something along those lines and it’s, it’s been well received because you’re not saying in an accusatory way, you’re framing it around a way that you’re wanting to learn and a good manager wants you to be wanting to learn.

So it’s a little bit of a win-win there. And you’re still offering them. an opportunity to give feedback. So you’re not saying, get out of here, I got this, but you’re saying, hey, I’d like to try this and can we check in once I’ve done the first round of it so that I can learn and then you still have an opportunity to give feedback. Okay, cool. Well, Leah, could you give us some really juicy stories of micromanagement and the uncomfortable details folks are living with and hopefully some happy endings for how they resolve those issues?

Yes, absolutely. So I think one of the examples that comes up a lot is with writing and communication. And I mentioned line editing emails and I’ve worked with folks that have shared, they’ve had managers where they had to, let’s say they had to send out an email that’s going to the whole team, maybe a couple of hundred people. And the manager wants to read the draft of the email, give inputs. They have 95 iterations. Then it goes from structure into word choices.

Then you have a really robust in the Google comments on the side, a discussion of, do we even want to send this? Is this the right word? You’re getting grammatical suggestions. You’re getting all sorts of things. Another person’s added to the chain. That person’s removed. We go back to thinking, do we want to do this email? When you’re just supposed to write one email that was going to not really be a big deal. It’s announcing like a lunch that’s happening next Friday.

And so I think this is the kind of thing that happens is someone either they’re feeling out of control. And so they go in and they just go to town on you. And imagine if you’re that person that was just trying to send this email out and the amount of time and energy being spent on picking apart your little insignificant trivial email, it starts to really feel yucky for that employee. It does indeed. And so then in that world, do we do just the things you mentioned?

How might we say that? Like, hey, I’d love to show you I got this. I’d like to demonstrate my skills. I’d like to take the first crack at it. It sounds like there were multiple cracks taken in this story. Which of the cracks are we? Well, I think in that situation I might ask, and again, it always depends on the relationship we have in our manager. I want to caveat that because I know some people listening might say, well, I can’t say that to my manager.

So I would say if you have a dialogue where you feel like you could say something on the lines of, it’s looking like we’re spending a lot of time on this email, and I want to better understand which are the situations where we really want to roll up our sleeves and dive in with this level of involvement, or which are the ones I can run with to just be done with and get off our list. So I think it can sort of flag like, hey, this is a little bit much, and also give an opportunity for feedback by asking an open-ended question that doesn’t sound defensive.

Okay, okay. Can you give us some examples of those questions or key verbiage sentences you love that can be really handy here? Yeah, so I think a little phrase that’s really useful is, I want to better understand. Another could be, so we can all be successful. I’m eager to learn and give this a try on my own to build my own skills here. Yeah, I want to better understand is way better than, so what’s your deal, dude?

What the hell, man? Yeah, yeah, exactly. I like that. Well, and that really does help you out because genuinely, because that’s I think what’s frustrating with the micromanaging situation is that that’s how I felt is like, okay, am I missing something here? Because it seems like this isn’t that big of a deal. Exactly. And yet the time and effort and iterations you’re putting on this would make it seem like it is a big deal. So seriously, help me understand, like genuinely help me understand, isn’t this just a fun lunch that we’re announcing?

Yeah. Does it matter if everyone goes or doesn’t go? And then maybe sometimes you’ll get a great answer. It’s like, well, actually, the issues being discussed at this lunch are very sensitive from a legal and liability perspective. So it’s very important that we don’t say anything that in the course of a discovery, should we be sued, is going to put, it’s like, oh. Yeah, now I know. I had no idea. Yeah. Well, thank you. It makes a lot of sense while we’re getting into it.

Exactly. Or maybe they’ll just chill out. It’s like, yeah, you’re right. I’m sorry. Exactly. Yeah. And the key here, I think a couple of things is to really, it can be frustrating when you’re in that moment. It’s like, oh my God, literally what’s going on? How is it? And it gets, when you’re under the micromanagement wrath, it can be very frustrating. But to take a step back, to let that subside, to remove the frustration from the way you’re communicating and to not come across as defensive, offensive, whichever one is more appropriate, like to not come forward with that.

Because I think when someone on the counterpart feels like accused, it just makes it, it throws the whole thing off. And that’s going to be, I think someone could say, well, of course it’s important like this. And they, especially if they had a real big reason, they could think, how do you not know that? Do you not, are you not taking care and time? So I think really having the conversation when you’re not feeling defensive or frustrated, really having it open with curiosity.

I am genuinely curious around this level of oversight and involvement. I’d love to learn more. I’d love to better understand. And so this might mean it should not be written in an email or a chat. Like I think there’s so much open for misinterpretation and written communication that just if you’re in person, walking down to your boss’s desk and saying, hey, got a second, I kind of wanted to better understand or asking to have a quick five minute meeting over video conference.

I just think it’s going to spare so much further miscommunication to actually talk face to face or over the phone if needed. And as I think about the times I’ve been micromanaged, it’s funny. I think sometimes it’s my own fault and it’s necessary. It’s like, hey Pete, there were several errors last time that were problematic. So we’re going to take some time to make sure we go through those in a way that there really was coaching, but it felt like you’re all up in my business that I don’t like it.

But the older wise repeat recognizes it was necessary in that time, in that season, in that piece of work, in that context for them to be up in my business, even though it was unpleasant, I didn’t like it. So I think that was kind of my takeaway. Lee, is it fair to say sometimes like the boy who cried wolf, the colleague who cried micromanagement, it may in fact just be appropriate management that just is uncomfortable and unpleasant in the moment?

Absolutely. And so this is why one of the core programs and workshops that I offer for teams is how to give feedback effectively. Because I think feedback given in effectively can feel like micromanagement when you don’t have a strong relationship with your team, it can feel like micromanagement. But actually we should be able to give feedback. And I don’t want any manager listening to this to go, well, I can’t say anything to my team members. It’s not that.

It’s about, I think like we said in the beginning of the conversation, getting to understand the style of communication. That’s really the norm in the organization, in the company, in the team, and then meeting that. And if you’re really finding yourself hitting those tip-offs, right? And that’s why the tip-offs weren’t people coming to you and saying, stop micromanaging. It’s like, what are the external signals that I’m too much in the weeds, right? And so that’s the difference there is if we’re finding, then it’s a moment to check in.

But giving feedback is critically important and is one of the most important things you can do as a manager. And receiving feedback effectively is one of the most important things you can do as a non-manager, because this is how you’re gonna grow and develop. So I think feedback and micromanaging is very different. I typically see micromanaging as level of involvement, I think, in your direct reports or in your management chain beneath you’s business affairs day-to-day. And then if your level of involvement could feel like, you may think it’s feedback if it’s around some kind of deliverable, but feedback, let’s say on an email or on a presentation is reviewing at a certain point, maybe later on, not every second, and then giving some specific tips and waiting for someone to come back to you, as opposed to rolling up the sleeves and thinking you’re gonna sit side-by-side and finish banging out the email together.

Yeah, I think that expectation alignment is huge. It’s like when it comes to decision rights or how that unfolds. I’m thinking other times I felt micromanaged, both of them, I was like planning social stuff. And so I thought, okay, this is just for the kids, you know, if you will, the folks on the team who are in larger numbers and there are relatively fewer managers, directors above. And one, it was saying, okay, so what are we gonna do for the office-wide fun time?

And so I did the survey, I put it out there, and I said, hey, what do you know? Sailing is the thing. They liked the most of the options. I think that’s cool. And so this director just kept digging into it. He was like, well, I’m curious if we really segment that data. My hypothesis is there’s a small sub-segment of folks who are strongly in favor of the sailing and many others. And it was like, okay, that is pretty convoluted and we’ll know we could slice the survey data another way, which we had, which was kind of like this first survey about the social stuff.

It was like, well, no, it still looks like this. And then my takeaway was, all right, dude, you just don’t want us to go sailing. Right. And so it’d be nice if there were options that were totally unacceptable to you that you just let them know in advance, for whatever reason. Like, hey, sailing sounds really cool and fun, but we can’t do that because of X, Y, Z. That’s gonna be problematic for a large swaths or office who are seasick.

I was like, okay, fair enough. All right, you know what? We won’t even put it on the survey because it’s good to know that upfront as opposed to we’re all stoked about sailing. And he said, no. Yeah. And it’s poo-pooed for like these not great reasons in terms of like, if we squint and slice the data in such a way we can get there. And other times it was just sort of a team event. It’s like, hey, let’s go, let’s do laser tag.

And I guess the manager wasn’t in the room and there was a lot of enthusiasm for that. Like, yeah, yeah, laser tag, let’s do it. And he’s like, so I don’t recall seeing a survey collecting the team input regarding the team activity. I was like, oh, sorry. Yeah, well, we just got talked about a few things and this one was by far had the most energy and enthusiasm. And then I was sort of shamed for like inappropriately gathering and getting complete feedback.

I was like, I would just respect them so much more. I was like, dude, just say like, hey, I want to participate too. I know this is like for the kids or quote unquote or whatever, but like, and I hate laser tag. And so I’d really appreciate it if you could find something else to include me. And I guess maybe that’s too humble or vulnerable or I don’t know for them. No, but I think that and in the example around the previous, we were talking about.

The sailing. The email. What you’re saying is it’s transparency and context. Like if there’s a reason, say it up front. Totally. Yeah. And I think you mentioned director and that stood out to me as I think that’s a real, the level of seniority and the level of depth should match, right? And I think that’s another thing that can be frustrating is when you have a VP or SVP or director that’s in very information, like in the details around planning something or orchestrating something that it just doesn’t feel like an appropriate match.

I think a senior leader, it’s really critically important to demonstrate interest and support for the team, this kind of stuff. But is it really necessary to be providing inputs on like activity level beyond setting some expectations and constraints? Not really. Because what happens is that person, whether they mean to or not, will have veto power because they have the highest level of hierarchy. And then it throws off the whole dynamic. So I think for any senior leaders listening to this, it’s like recognize your own position in a company or a team and think, hey, do I need to be in this conversation?

Am I actually inadvertently throwing it off? Am I sharing my opinion and it’s carrying more weight because of my hierarchy when it really shouldn’t and then taking a step back. Certainly. And just expectations alignments. I guess I was thinking like, hey, the senior leaders, I guess the way I view the activities were, these are primarily for us. Right, right. Because one, we outnumber you and two, like you make gobs of money. And this is part of the recognition and appreciation for that.

Yeah. So anyway, so maybe that’s an unfair view or characterization or expectation for the social activities. Well, that’s interesting because I had that same observation working on my roles in tech or around team operations and establishing team process. And I always found that the recipients of process were actually very open to it. It was like other people that would say, oh, I don’t know about this other team operations or other managers, never the recipients of that thing.

And I think it’s down that we were saying, because like you said, the people that were going to engage the activity, they’re all like down with the laser tag and with the sailing. And so that’s another question maybe to think about when you’re maybe shutting down an idea or giving feedback. When I talk about feedback, I always think I encourage people to ask, am I the right person to give that feedback? And so in your situation, like, am I the right person?

Is, am I even attending this event? Do I really care? And like, what’s my stake in the situation? And I think for the leaders in your situation, it’s like I’m best suited just to support the activity, to pay the bill and show up and welcome everybody and like leave it at that. So, yeah. Yeah. But then again, if they had a different expectation, it’s totally cool to share that. It’s like, hey, you know what? This is a cool opportunity we have to really just flatten the hierarchy and in which the managers, directors, VPs, whatever, get to be silly and ridiculous right alongside and- Exactly.

So it’s setting that context up front. And it’s so stressful dealing with blah, blah, blah. So like, I know it might seem silly, but we want to play too. And I would find that endearing. It was like, okay, okay, thank you, I understand. That’s cute. Yeah. Let’s do this thing you like too. Exactly. And so, like you said, it’s the setting the context. I think with these team-related activities, but there’s a lot of, I think it’s really important to be inclusive, make sure everybody can actually participate in the activities, that there’s not overly focused on alcohol or they’re in the right times of day where people can participate if they have to be doing caretaking and pickup.

So like, there’s a lot of constraints. So it’s really important for leaders to set that context for folks so that they can then plan something that’s inclusive and appealing to everybody. So there’s a lot to navigate and it can be a trap for micromanagement. So a little bit of both. Well, you really can. I think it’s funny because they say, all right, let’s let the junior employees run with something. It’s like, this isn’t that important. So you can just own it, but you don’t own it.

Psych. Yeah. And so this is something, when I talk about delegating, that is so critically important is there’s a lot of components of delegating that can be tricky, but like saying, what is the task? What does success look like? And then what is my expectation of involvement? I think that’s the one thing that managers don’t always talk about. They say, okay, here, go run with this. This is what success looks like. We’re all good. And then the manager’s like, well, kind of, where are we at with that?

And they want to be regularly updated. They want to be in the loop. They want to know what’s going on at these different time periods. That goes in the conversation upfront. If we say, I want you to take on this status report that goes out every Friday, if you really want a preview of that status report on Wednesday, you got to say that. Not just show up Wednesday like, I need to see this today because someone thought they had till Friday, and then they’re going to feel like, oh gosh, I had no idea that was coming.

Beautiful. Well, Leah, tell me anything else you want to make sure to mention before we shift gears and hear about some of your favorite things. Yeah. So if you’re a manager and you’re feeling a little bit stuck, but you don’t know where to start, hey, you’re not alone. Head to my website at leahgarvin.com slash manager quiz and share where you’re feeling stuck. And I will follow up with a personalized video with a few ideas to help get your team back on track.

Again, that’s leahgarvin.com slash manager quiz. So my work focuses across three different areas, manager development, employee engagement, and development and retention of women. So if you are struggling across any of these three areas or just want to get better at them in general, please reach out. I would love to support your team. All right. Well, now could you share a favorite quote so that you find inspiring? So something that I’ve been finding inspiring is the quote, make the why bigger than the fear.

And this is something I think for any of us to think about that are doing something new. So this was really motivating for me as I launched my own business and left the corporate world was the thing that’s really fueling you to do it. Let that be bigger than all the reasons that are telling you to stop and go back and keep it safe. And I think for teams, it’s right now there’s a lot going on.

It’s really uncertain. People are cutting back. And so remembering why are we here? What are we trying to create? I think that can really help, especially if you’re a manager, create a sense of certainty even when there’s so much uncertainty happening. Okay. And a favorite study or experiment or bit of research? Yeah, my favorite study, it’s a year over year is the Lean In and McKinsey & Company Woman in the Workplace Report. It’s a wealth of information around people’s experiences.

They’ve added in the recent years, the intersection of gender and race and really deeply understanding the experiences of women, why women are leaving the corporate world at higher rates than ever. This year, a lot of the information talked about a lack of recognition and visibility. This is something that managers have so much control over, making sure people feel seen like their work matters, making sure it’s getting the right level of visibility. So that’s a study I go back to every single year as they put it out to really inform where I focus and some of the things that I can highlight for the teams I work with.

And a favorite book? So a book that I read over the holidays was Lead to Win by Karla Harris. And Karla Harris has a series of books around her pearls of wisdom. She was vice chairman at Morgan Stanley and has a ton of great insights around career sponsorship, how to really build up your skills as a leader. And this one specifically dives into how to build great teams, how to drive inclusion on teams, really a playbook for managers trying to break through to the next level.

So that’s something I’ve been really loving reading. And a favorite tool? Something you use to be awesome at your job? Tool, yes, otter.ai, I believe it’s called. It’s an app where you, it’s a voice notes app, but it does AI transcription. So it’s pretty flawless transcription. And whenever I have to write an email, now this is great for if you’re like writing a cautious response to maybe some passive aggressive behavior or you’re trying to get your ideas out.

I will speak out this email into the voice app. And then I have a great thing to copy and paste into my email. I think a lot of times when we’re writing, we can get stuck on having the perfect wording. So if I’m writing a bio for something, or like I said, a difficult email or something I’m just getting stuck on, grabbing the app, talking it out into there, and then copying, pasting, and taking the good parts and having that be the written form is just a huge shortcut.

And a favorite habit? Favorite habit, I guess it’s called multitasking, but I’d like to, I have a walking desk and I do work while I’m walking on the desk. So I like to do two things at once that allow me to get two things done at the same time. Some call it multitasking, I would call it layering two activities. Is there a key nugget you share that really seems to connect and resonate with folks? They quote it back to you often?

Yes, when you’re feeling stuck or you encounter rejection or failure, it’s not you, it’s your approach. And when you change your approach, you will change your outcome. All right. And if folks want to learn more, get in touch, where would you point them? Connect with me on LinkedIn. I love to hear from folks, especially what resonated from this episode or reach out on my website at LeahGarvin.com. Okay. And do you have a final challenge or call to action for folks looking to be awesome at their jobs?

Yeah, I think for folks, giving yourself a little bit of permission to be figuring it out right now. Right now is a really, really hard time in the workplace. There’s so much, so much uncertainty. And figuring out what do you need to be able to face every day, feeling more optimistic or more supported. So if that’s taking a walk, doing a meditation, making your favorite coffee, whatever it is, figure out what that thing is and building that into your routine so that you have a sense of, I’m doing something for myself every day.

All right. Leah, thanks. This has been a treat. I wish you much luck and little micromanagement. That’s all I have for today. Thank you so much for tuning in to the Managing Made Simple Podcast, where my goal is to demystify the job of people management so that together we can make the workplace somewhere everyone can thrive. With that said, let’s spread the word. If you love this episode, please pass it along to someone who might benefit from it.

See you next time.